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Remove the line, " historians today generally consider Frank to have been innocent" from the Origins section of this article. The source (ref. 25) for whether or not historians think a Jewish man is innocent or guilty cannot be a special interest group (Jewish) stating it to be the case with no sourcing of their own to back it up. It is the equivalent of me claiming the moon isn't real because some anti-moon non profit baselessly made the claim. 73.164.131.155 (talk) 21:36, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Go ahead and remove it. You have my consensus. There is no credible historian that thinks Frank was innocent much less a consensus of such historians. Plus, as you noted, the citation is from the Jewish Forward (far from a credible source). Guillermo Sanders (talk) 05:05, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Edits to Anti-Zionism and antisemitism section[edit]
Revert-warring this extra text back in without gaining consensus first does not seem to comply with WP:STATUSQUO or WP:ONUS. Although The Guardian is a reliable source, having 11 sentences that cite only that one source and no others appears excessive (see WP:DUEWEIGHT); some of the wording is repetitive; and WP:OVERQUOTING encourages shorter summaries rather than quotations. Do any other editors agree with Makeandtoss that this longer version of the text is necessary to the article? Llll5032 (talk) 18:39, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
11 sentences citing one very important source, if not the main source on the topic is not excessive, since WP:UNDUE states: "in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources". There are no differing viewpoints in the Guardian, thus the proportion of this viewpoint is very due, if not exlusively due.
As for WP:OVERQUOTING it is defined as when "it is presented visually on the page but its relevance is not explained anywhere; quotations are used to explain a point that can be paraphrased; the quotations dominate the article or section." which also doesn't apply here.
Do you have any other WP-based arguments why you object to my edit? Makeandtoss (talk) 19:08, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the 11 sentences that cite the Guardian article as their only source, are no other WP:GREL sources available? Your reasoning seems unusual; while no one disputes that the Guardian article is relevant and should be used, in fact more WP:DUEWEIGHT is generally given to claims highlighted by multiple RS, not selected from a single RS. Llll5032 (talk) 19:41, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is only because you moved a supporting paragraph with a different source to the timeline section. To respond to your concerns, I have moved it back, deleted a duplicate paragraph, remove two quotations, and added another source. Please if you have any sources with opposing views I would gladly consider them to improve the current text. If not, then undue weight argument does not hold here, as this seems to be the only viewpoint on this controversy. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:37, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The move is related to that section and is completely relevant there. I am editing per BRD, so I am looking forward to seeing your constructive suggestions. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:11, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Except for the addition of the Forward source, I do not think that these edits were improvements, and some aspects were reverts warred in[1][2] without consensus. The relocation of all information about the ADL's responses to the Israel-Hamas war from the neutral "2020s" chronology into a section that is newly renamed "Conflation of anti-Zionism and antisemitism", along with other unattributed descriptions of "conflation" in Wikivoice, added a POV that is discouraged by WP:VOICE unless RS more commonly use it. (In fact, only one of the several sources now cited in the section appears to describe this as a conflation.) The edits removed some more nuanced information that was DUE, including the group's denial in the Guardian that it was conflating, experts' response to that denial, and the number of antisemitic incidents the ADL said had occurred. There is some repetition, and two quotations are still longer than necessary. Do any other editors agree with Makeandtoss that these edits were improvements? Llll5032 (talk) 15:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is time to make changes to the edits discussed above, per WP:VOICE, WP:DUEWEIGHT, WP:STICKTOSOURCE, and WP:ONUS, but I will wait another two days for editors besides Makeandtoss and myself to comment. Llll5032 (talk) 21:31, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP, the Guardian is a highly reliable source and does not require attribution unless in cases of quotation. Nevertheless, the Guardian has been attributed almost in all cases.
In addition, I have added one more recent article by The Nation, which has gone as far as describing the ADL as "Israel's attack dog in the US," which is quite a scathing criticism coming from a highly reliable source. While inserting the new information in the article, it became apparent to me that criticism of the ADL has been watered down everywhere (probably because ADL staff previously edited the article until they were exposed and prevented from doing so). What I have added is a fraction of what should be done to accurately reflect RS.
The ADL is highly controversial, and this is not my opinion, this is the position of highly reliable sources. This is definitely due weight. I have already refuted your points, so I will leave this discussion for other editors to jump into. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:42, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article you added from The Nation also does not use the words conflate or conflation. So now, only one source out of eight in a section called "Conflation of anti-Zionism and antisemitism" even uses the word to describe any aspect of the section. Llll5032 (talk) 18:34, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
“The ADL’s priority today remains—as it has for decades—going after Americans who are simply opposed to Israel’s endless occupation and oppression of Palestinians. The group’s preferred targets are students, professors, activists, and demonstrators—rather than antisemites, especially those on the far right.” It’s clearly the same idea so it belongs in this section and other parts in it are relevant to other sections. This article alone has numerous information, I barely used three sentences in it. Criticism of the ADL has been completely watered down. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:00, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is DUE for the article to include opinionated RS such as the Nation (WP:RSP notes that the Nation should be attributed, so it generally does not go in Wikivoice). But to conflate 7 of 8 sources that don't use your heading's phrasing is a WP:DUEWEIGHT, WP:STRUCTURE, WP:STICKTOSOURCE, and WP:VOICE problem, and may run afoul of WP:SYNTH too. Would any other editors care to defend it? Llll5032 (talk) 03:32, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Nation source is an article and not an opinion article. And its statement about the ADL being Israel's attack dog is attributed. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:20, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand what possible reason there could be to censor the Guardian of all things in the context. This is an extremely main line RSP, so yes, 11 sentences and even more can be supported by it – though the content in this edit involves far less monotonous sourcing than this thread might imply. The citations are spread across a lot of other material, so actually it just looks like normal, good editing and sourcing. I hope there was a better reason that just "too much Guardian" provided in the original revert/removal. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:28, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Citing 11 (now 9) sentences to one source, and no other source, stretches proportion even for a GREL source. But no one reverted all the content or "censored". Rather, the conflicts were about overquoting, synthesis, and widespread close paraphrasing that needed to be edited. Discussions are in this talk section, the Reversions discussion, and the edit summaries. Llll5032 (talk) 04:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Editors must be careful about WP:VOICE and WP:DUEWEIGHT in this section. I edited some of the VOICE problems. There is also overquoting from a single article in the Guardian that should be reduced; perhaps limiting quotations to a maximum of one sentence per cited RS would be a compromise, and following the rest of the article, most RS should receive no quotations besides perhaps a few words. Also, per the emphasis of the sources, some of the information about the war should be returned to the History chronology instead of being in this section. Llll5032 (talk) 18:04, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Llll5032: Thanks for pointing the WP:HEADLINES guideline, which I did not know about. But why did you remove? [3]
1- the reason why ADL staffers quit
2- the context of how ADL continued to pursue these controversial policies despite increasing internal dissent
Knowingly that the Guardian is a reliable source that does not require attribution per WP? We have already discussed this on the talk page, and for you to suddenly backtrack on it months later is not a good sign of constructive editing behavior. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:22, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for acknowledging the guideline, Makeandtoss.
The Guardian article did not say the employees quit because of "mainly the conflation of anti-Zionism with antisemitism", the wording you used in the article, but rather "in response to its overt emphasis on pro-Israel advocacy since the Israeli offensive on Gaza began".[1] So we must WP:STICKTOSOURCE and, if citing a reason, use only the specific reason that the Guardian named for the resignations, per WP:SNYTH: "do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source." Other redundant wording I removed, which was less than what I disputed last month, contained no extra information but rather narrative commentary discouraged by WP:VOICE.
No other editor supported your warred-in edits to this section in January and February. Per WP:ONUS I could have removed more of your edits then, but I did not in hopes that a consensus among more editors could be reached on this talk page. There is no "backtrack", so please stop casting aspersions. Llll5032 (talk) 16:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Llll5032: If that was the case, then why didn't you simply replace the conflation comment with the over emphasis on pro-Israel advocacy, instead of just fully decontextualizing the paragraph? And why did you also decontextualize the following paragraph which was talking about how ADL continued to advance its controversial policies despite increasing internal dissent, which was the focus of the Guardian article? If narrative commentary was your concern, then why didn't you simply add the Guardian as attribution, which is a RS and doesn't require attribution anyway? I think these arguments do not support wholesale removal like you did, and is indicative of backtracking from our discussions here as these points have already been made. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The part of the sentence that I left intact is the part that mentions the pro-Israel advocacy, because the Guardian article said it. After my edit, the sentence says, "As of early 2024, two ADL staff quit the group in response to pro-Israel advocacy during the war." Although I believe it is disproportionate to cite only this source and no other sources for nine sentences, I removed no encyclopedic information from it in the edit, only some synthesis and narrative repetition. Please do not leave the impression that I made any edits that I did not make. Llll5032 (talk) 04:02, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Llll5032: Just noticed that the pro-Israel advocacy part was left intact; but you still removed the information on how the ADL continued its controversial work despite increasing internal dissent. You could have at least kept that part and attributed it to the Guardian; even though WP clearly does not require attribution for this high quality RS. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:19, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Llll5032: Please restore the context of advancing this work despite increasing internal dissent which is stated clearly in the Guardian article. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:22, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Makeandtoss, you "Just noticed that the pro-Israel advocacy part was left intact", after you again used this talk page to insinuate, wrongly, that I made an edit that I did not make. Time-consuming aspersions and straw man arguments distract from constructive discussions about this article. Please strike your latest accusation and check yourself before making accusations.
Regarding your question: As I suggested before, I removed the other clause not only because of the synthesis involving "conflation", but also because repetition can violate neutrality even if it summarizes a RS. Removing that clause cut none of the information, only narrative repetition. Per WP:DUEWEIGHT, "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery." Llll5032 (talk) 20:47, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Llll5032: I skim through long texts as I come across dozens of articles everyday, so it is inevitable to make mistakes. I am not asking about the conflation part, I am asking about the content that ADL continued its policies despite increasing internal dissent, why did you remove that? And why not add the Guardian as attribution as a solution, while stressing that this RS doesn't need one? Makeandtoss (talk) 19:39, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because the dissent is already mentioned in the sentences prior in the article, we don't repeat for narrative purposes from a source that is already the only citation in 9 sentences. I agree that "it is inevitable to make mistakes", so please assume good faith and slow down before characterizing what other editors do, and ask careful questions that lead to consensus instead. Please also strike the aspersions in this section, which you have not yet done. Llll5032 (talk) 07:15, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keith Woods is not a 'self described raging antisemite'[edit]
I have some difficulty with this text. Woods may be a raging antisemite, and I don't care about tweeted denials. But I don't like the sourcing for a BLP issue. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:18, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The three cited sources also describe Woods as an Irish white nationalist and an Irish neo-Nazi. Would one of those descriptions be more appropriate? Llll5032 (talk) 03:46, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These are also unsubstantiated lies. Woods is and identifies as an Irish ethno-nationalist, not a white nationalist or a neo-nazi. This description would be appropriate. Malkanath-the-Hated (talk) 18:07, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He is not a raging antisemite however. There is no evidence for this and there never has been. The description should be removed accordingly. Malkanath-the-Hated (talk) 18:08, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Irish white nationalist" is the description the RS most commonly used in their own words while describing the controversy, so it seems most suitable per WP:BLPSTYLE ("avoiding both understatement and overstatement"), WP:BLPBALANCE, and WP:PCR. Five RS are now cited about the controversy relating to Woods, with similar descriptions of him, and more appear to be available if there are questions about WP:WEIGHT. Is that a reasonable edit? Llll5032 (talk) 06:27, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed this part of the first sentence, as it is partly duplicative, and what is left behind has a much more balanced feel. To say that the ADL's "specialism" is "civil rights law and combatting antisemitism and extremism" is misleading, because of the order of words and because of what it leaves out. A more fulsome description of its specialism might be "combatting antisemitism and engaging in political advocacy for American Jewish communities and for Israel". The references to civil rights law and extremism are sub-points of this, and are expanded on in more detail later. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:29, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Elements of that text in the first sentence have been stable for twenty years and are cited to some WP:TERTIARY and other sources,[2][3][4][5] so I restored it for now. For example, Britannica begins with "Anti-Defamation League, advocacy organization established in Chicago in 1913 to fight anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry and discrimination." Should WP:BESTSOURCES be discussed in support of editing it, per MOS:FIRST? Llll5032 (talk) 17:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neither the four sources (at least those available online) nor the 20-years-ago version support the text you just re-added. Let's engage in discussing what a perfect intro paragraph should state. I have given a view above, and you have given the Britannica example here.
In the meantime, the current clause needs to go as it is currently unsupported. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:01, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which words in the longstanding clause that you removed are currently unsupported by the cited RS? Llll5032 (talk) 18:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This thread is not about whether the individual words can be individually sourced. It is about whether the formulation as used represents NPOV. None of the sources you have brought use an equivalent formulation to the one in the title of this thread. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those are the sources cited in the first sentence in this article. The tertiary sources begin with descriptions that are similar to the clause you removed. Perhaps refquotes are needed in the article for more WP:V, or you could clarify how the formulation differs from the sources. If your question is about WP:DUEWEIGHT, then perhaps other WP:BESTSOURCES, especially tertiary sources, could be discussed or cited. Llll5032 (talk) 18:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Britannica does not mention a specialism in civil rights – it mentions some activities in this area, alongside the charge that it has abandoned civil rights – and doesn't include the word extremism at all. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:52, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Britannica lists the ADL's three "Areas Of Involvement" as anti-Semitism, civil rights, and hate crime, and notes the activism during the civil rights movement in two sentences within its article. At the end of its article, Britannica notes controversy over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and says its "detractors have accused it of abandoning its original civil rights mission"; that fact is usable with attribution in this article, but would it negate that the group specializes in civil rights law? Perhaps refquotes to RS for each claim should clarify. Llll5032 (talk) 20:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, so that's from the Britannica infobox I see (not sure how far we should trust these), but in the body, it isn't specifically tied to civil rights after 1964. And what about "extremism"? Iskandar323 (talk) 20:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the 1980s, testimony was put before Congress that their tactics in fact converge to create a personal and a political threat to the civil rights of Arab Americans and their organizations". [5]Iskandar323 (talk) 20:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems wholly sensible – like an actual description, not a promo. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It would be an actual description if it was not in WP voice; "combatting antisemitism and extremism" makes it look as if this is indeed true, which, as we can see from the numerous controversies, is not necessarily true. A solution to avoid stating this in WP voice would be something around "whose mission is to combat..." or "whose stated aim is to combat.." Whether they indeed done so or not is a different story. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:33, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Coca-Cola Company's mission statement is "To refresh the world and make a difference."
We don't include this in the article's lead paragraph; instead we just describe its primary activities.
As our article Mission statement says about their disadvantages: "…Unrealistic: In some cases, mission statements be too optimistic…" Onceinawhile (talk) 23:01, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is also very true. My point was about the least that could be done, instead of the current version in WP voice.
^Hendricks, Nancy (2019). "Anti-Defamation League". In Ainsworth, Scott H.; Harward, Brian M. (eds.). Political Groups, Parties, and Organizations That Shaped America: An Encyclopedia and Document Collection. Vol. 1. Bloomsbury Academic. ISBN9781440851964.
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What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):
−
is a New York–based international Jewishnon-governmental organization and advocacy group
+
is a New York–based international non-governmental organization and advocacy group
Why it should be changed: I was not able to find any RS inside or outside the article which currently refers to the ADL as a "jewish organization". ADL has roots in a jewish organization, but it has since split and become independent, as described in the article lede. For what it's worth, the ADL doesn't refer to itself as a Jewish organization anywhere [6], so it seems bizarre to refer to it this way in the article.