Talk:Keir Starmer

Edit Request - Kate Osamor suspension

The edit to add "or for describing its conduct as genocide" to the reason for suspensions in relation to Kate Osamor as "she was never accused of antisemitism" (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Keir_Starmer&diff=prev&oldid=1216861453) should be changed, as it misses the context that groups had considered it offensive that the remarks were made as part of a Holocaust Memorial Day message.

Otherwise the sentence as a whole "The Labour Party under Starmer suspended several parliamentary candidates and MPs, including Graham Jones, Andy McDonald, Azhar Ali and Kate Osamor, for allegedly making anti-Semitic comments about Israel during the Israel-Hamas war, or for describing its conduct as genocide" reads disingenuously and misses important context. It additionally makes it appear that all of the suspensions could be the result of simply describing Israel's conduct as genocide. SoThisIsPeter (talk) 23:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Photo outdated

How is a photo form 2017 being used here? Isn't a new one available? Looks very dated. 92.59.166.156 (talk) 17:15, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

There will be a new one in 42 days! --150.143.27.147 (talk) 23:31, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Views - Israel Palestine

There is a glaring omissions in this article that Starmer supported the right of Israel to cut off water and food to Gaza as a response to Oct 7.

It is common knowledge, and has been repeatedly mentioned since the Nick Ferrari interview in credible media outlets.

Original instance - https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/sir-keir-starmer-hamas-terrorism-israel-defend-itself/#:~:text=He%20also%20said%20%E2%80%9CIsrael%20has,from%20Hamas%2C%E2%80%9D%20he%20added

Clearly this should be reflected given how pertinent it is within the context of current events and his foreign policy views. Aak1307 (talk) 09:19, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

There is practically a whole paragraph about this already? Michaeldble (talk) 11:59, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

There is a paragraph about the general theme, but the fact he said Israel had the right to cut off food and water should appear in views as opposed to within the body of text within his political career thus far. There were other specific and actually quite unique positions / situations applicable to Starmer, which are pertinent to his leadership of the Labour party and his views on this issue which have also been removed.

It seems, in part, an edit that you made to clean up some duplications actually also remove quite a lot of important information about his views on the issue. His membership of the LFI group and the fact that he has personally received large sums of money Pro-Israel groups for example have been omitted. The current views section, intended or otherwise, minimise just how pro Israel he has actually shown himself to be by removing these items. Aak1307 (talk) 08:33, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

@Aak1307, Starmer is pro-Israel, undoubtedly, but you are selectively picking out bits of news to paint him as very pro-Israel. In reality, he said “I think that Israel does have that right. It is an ongoing situation. Obviously, everything should be done within international law," when asked by Nick Ferrari "A siege is appropriate? Cutting off power, cutting off water?" He later clarified and added to this: see here. Keep in mind, this was just two weeks after the war in Gaza started and the attack on Oct. 7 was still on everyone's minds.

Its also worth noting that Starmer came out in favor of a ceasefire back in February (see here) and just recently said he would be open to recognizing Palestine (see here). Now it isn't enough but it does indicates he isn't THAT pro-Israel. Which isn't to say he isn't; he definitely is pro-Israel... but so are most establishment politicians. And his party is far from the only one receiving pro-Israel lobby money - he personally can't receive money from any group; that is against the lobbying laws. So there needs to be balance in how we paint his views on this decisive issue. Omnis Scientia (talk) 01:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Note: none of this is to defend him. Just adding context and pointing out his views on Israel/Palestine are very complex. They aren't as black and white as you're making them to be. Omnis Scientia (talk) 01:21, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate the thoughtful reply.

I agree he has since made revisions to the statement which have suggested a more nuanced view as a matter of record (putting aside any speculation re his motivations for doing so).

I would point out that Starmer is a legal expert and knows international law well, especially human rights law. The idea that he wasn't/isn't aware of the status of such a blockade in international law is a stretch. I laude your giving him benefit of the doubt, but Starmer knows the illegality of it as well as the illegality of the broader siege of Gaza prior to October 7th. I would therefore suggest the position that "it's complex" doesn't apply here, it's something he had significant prior knowledge of and was indeed remanded on repeatedly by prominent members of the legal community (https://tribunemag.co.uk/2022/04/keir-starmer-labour-party-israel-apartheid-palestine-amnesty-report-jewish-chronicle).

Secondly, significant parts of the Labour Party think he is too pro-Israel: https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/48796-keir-starmer-has-handled-labours-response-on-gaza-badly-say-public-and-labour-voters

Thirdly, whilst yes he has suggested he'd "recognise Palestine", as is also pointed out in the wiki page, he's given Israel an effective veto over it (https://www.thejc.com/news/politics/keir-starmer-officially-junks-labours-old-policy-on-palestinian-statehood-r8bs7afe). This is, of course, not support for self-determination at all but does give the appearance of such.

Forthly, he lobbied Lindsay Hoyle to deliberately obstruct a ceasefire vote (https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/labour-keir-starmer-ceasefire-vote-gaza-hoyle-protect-image-endanger-mp-security/). I can't find the twitter post anymore, but the LFI director Michael Rubin did post shortly after the debacle thanking Starmer and Lammy for their "continued friendship and support for Israel".

Don't get me wrong, I know he is not the most pro-Israel politician in the country. He is materially more so than the current wiki page shows, and quite probably the most pro-Israel leader the party has ever had.

Aak1307 (talk) 04:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@Aak1307, hey there. No worries at all, I appreciate your thoughtful response as well. Indeed you are right. He has been more pro-Israel than pro-Palestine since the war in Gaza. I only give him the benefit of the doubt because he's obviously been careful about what to say given the upcoming election (it would have happened sooner or later but definitely this year) on anything really.

I do think he was aware that a blockade/siege is against international law which is why he was quick to clear up his answer. I genuinely believe that his answer that day was a gaffe more than anything which came at the worst possible time and it really annoyed me that he ballsed up his answer on an important question that bad. That said, he definitely could be more clear on exactly what his stances are and be more decisive on the matter. So far, he's walking a tightrope in order to not anger either side of the debate in Britain. I think we'll find out more clearly after the election and in the highly likely event he becomes PM. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:00, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, I would say that while Starmer is definitely up in "most pro-Israel leaders of Labour", I would Clemente Attlee is the most pro-Israel Labour leader and a handful of others have been more pro-Israel, including Tony Blair. Again, my belief is that we'll only find out if and when Starmer becomes PM just how pro-Israel he is. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Starmer was replying to a complex question. It's possible he was agreeing to the question of whether or not Israel had a right to defend itself, which is how he later explained his answer. He also said in his answer that everything must be done according to international law. TFD (talk) 19:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces, that is very much what happened. Here. ETA: This isn't defending him - I didn't like his initial comment either - but context is important and he has been consistant on humanitarian aid to Gaza since. Omnis Scientia (talk) 01:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)