Talk:Lucy Letby

New Yorker Article

Not sure where it would fit but I feel like the New Yorker Article should be included somewhere on this page. 2A02:C7C:9B36:7D00:6C93:9AB4:A12:1523 (talk) 21:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Done before you posted. NebY (talk) 21:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

The article is currently unavailable. Has it been taken down? Archived here. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 13:38, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not available in the United Kingdom because of Letby's pending appeal/retrial; it's available in other countries. Mackensen (talk) 18:06, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

An article casting doubt on her guilt is considered to potentially prejudice the appeal in her favour, but a year of media coverage painting her as - in the words of one reporter - "the face of evil" (not to mention this Wikipedia page reporting her guilt as fact) is presumably not considered to potentially prejudice it against her? That's... fascinating. 86.162.184.224 (talk) 21:52, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

She has been found guilt, that’s the fact of the matter. The retrial next month is for a single charge for which the original jury were hung. She was found guilty on the other charges. There’s a concurrent appeal which if successful would mean all charges are retried. Unlike the U.S. system, British justice doesn’t permit the public discussion of proceeding until they’re confirmed—its to protect the interested of all involved, including the charged. SteadyJames (talk) 21:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

We currently have "Aviv also questioned the testimony of Dewi Evans ..." which may give the impression that this is new evidence. During Letby's trial, the jury was told that Evans' report in another case had been described as worthless etc, as described by Aviv, and her defence lawyer sought to have Evans' evidence struck out. This was reported by the Independent in August 2023: "Bid to exclude evidence of prosecution medical expert was refused by judge" (and possibly elsewhere). Should we first mention all this in our account of the trial and then in describing the New Yorker article say that Aviv also remarked on it, rather than presenting it only in our account of the New Yorker article as if it's the fruit of new investigation? NebY (talk) 09:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree with this—if the suspicious about Evans predate the New Yorker article that substantially, I think it's worth referring to them earlier. Nonetheless, I'd argue that we should keep Aviv's commentary about Evans (specifically the quote about him providing the medical basis for the prosecution) as that's a distinct 'fruit of the poison tree' allegation. Fiendpie (talk) 16:36, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Rewriting the children segments

Reading through this article, it seems that the segments discussing the cases of each individual child are basically just transcribing the prosecution's arguments - not the worst thing, but if you want to write it that way you should probably add the defense's rebuttal as well. Of course that makes for a pretty bad flow for that segment overall. IMO these segments should be completely nuked and rewritten. I would do it, but I am 95% sure it would spark an edit war as a fair amount of active editors would simply interpret that as "oh you're just biased in her favor". Any consensus on rewriting them? Jspace727 (talk) 17:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Definitely agree they need rewriting, especially since a lot of the content occurs twice (once in the timeline, once in the trial section). A lot of the phrasing is also just kind of awkward right now. I've been hesitant for similar reasons but would absolutely support a major rewrite.— Moriwen (talk) 17:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea. Are we maybe diving too deep? Is the only way to write with WP:NPOV, neither emphasising awfulness or highlighting alternative narratives, to include so much meticulous detail of each death? NebY (talk) 17:45, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

They're individually definitely written from a "look how evil that woman is she's 100% guilty" point of view which is probably something we don't want on this page especially given the concerns raised and the fact that there are still legal aspects related to the ongoing that have the potential to over turn the case. Granted they are originally sourced from the prosecution, so of course they are written that way. The larger issue is they describe medical cases yet are hideously light or in a lot of cases just flat out wrong on the medical parts. Some objectivity and context on the described afflictions are really badly needed. A bigger issue is most likely the fact that the prosecution's argument tracing Letby to the deaths is structured in a way to leave out anything in the cases that doesn't support their arguments, meaning it might be pretty hard to find an objective and entire accounting of each child's case.Jspace727 (talk) 18:01, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

the UK has blocked articles that presented information that would suggest doubt, so there is an inherent bias in what is even readily available to cite.

The New Yorker article is a recent example. A major publication by a reputable investigative journalist and people in the UK aren't even allowed to read it. 128.237.82.8 (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, it felt close to being essentially primary sources, even though technically we are quoting secondary sources which all but state the same thing the primary source's (prosecution) argument. The entire segments is filled with this POV, including things like "She did X, then looked up the children on phone". It's implying a correlation there, and I'm not convinced that's a reasonable correlation, forget the main one.

I would personally nuke the entire Timeline section, and let someone start from scratch if they want to write a summarised NPOV way of it. Worst case we have no timeline section, and the article is still better off. It's too overly detailed as well Soni (talk) 21:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@Moriwen @NebY Would you be okay with that? I'd like to establish some quick consensus before we remove chunks, just in case. Soni (talk) 21:06, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Good by me.— Moriwen (talk) 21:11, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

...and I'd personally suggest getting big chunks of the "2023 trial" section as well, which imo has the same issues.— Moriwen (talk) 21:12, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. I think the trial section needs to basically take a hard pass or three where we split it into sections (Probably as simple as "Every day of trial in a new heading") and then strip most of the overly detailed stuff from the trial. It'll take slightly more work than just removing an entire section at once though. Soni (talk) 21:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that all sounds right to me. Enormous appreciation for you tackling this head-on.— Moriwen (talk) 21:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I am, yes. I just tried skipping that section while skimming the article; it's still rather large and indigestible, but we lose a big NPOV problem and don't lose anything essential to a BLP. On size, BTW, Prosezize is reporting 8619 words of text, which is uncomfortably large per WP:SIZERULE's rule-of-thumb, all for a subject who's notable for one thing only. NebY (talk) 21:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

• Done. Anyone who wants to re-add info from the timeline can use the diff. Now for the less easy bit, doing the same for the trial. Soni (talk) 21:27, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you; even the TOC looks better. "Every day of trial in a new heading" might break down fast though, given it ran from 10 October 2022 to 21 August 2023. NebY (talk) 21:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah I am starting to think it might be good to split that section by trial (general details about trial) - evidence (main timeline, much trimmed) - evidence inside house (and diary/notes, but much much more summarised) - defence arguments.

  I'm doing small passes, removing one line or two at a time which feel the least relevant. Mostly I think a good rule of thumb would be "anything we can source only from 'Timeline of X' style articles, we should remove". There should be more news articles that summarise the chunk of this timeline and still give us the details on all the murders; whereas things like "She checked them on facebook the next day" and "She posted on social media about returning. The next day baby died" seems uniquely overly detailed in a way only a timeline news article would have. Soni (talk) 22:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  I have done a few more passes to get the least relevant/most detailed bits cut. It'd be nice if other editors also watchlisting the page could comment, so we can discuss if any bits/which bits need to be re-added (ideally with different sources).

  Anything supported only by the 4 sources I mentioned in below section, I'm making stronger cuts towards. For example, a claim like As well as in the two cases in which insulin poisoning had been proved, evidence provided by medical experts indicated that all the babies had been harmed intentionally. should have much stronger sources than it does right now Soni (talk) 10:26, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

  You are marvelous. Enormous respect for your work here.— Moriwen (talk) 15:55, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for doing this! I don't dare take a proper look now – can't risk the time it might demand, alas – but maybe tomorrow. NebY (talk) 10:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Heavily biased editors with agenda roving article edits

An improvement to the first paragraph (made by another verified user, not me) was reverted by user cwmxii, and their explanation was the following:

This is giving unnecessary ground to the conspiracy theorists and truthers who've infested this article in the last few days, sorry.

This is an incredibly inappropriate explanation for a Wikipedia edit. This user did not dispute the reliability of the edit, the cited material, the prior explanation for the edit, or the importance of the edit. Their only explanation is that it "gives ground" to people that the user has baselessly deemed conspiracy theorists.

This is not the first time this has occurred. As a result, the opening section of the article is inaccurate. It is written as if there is no controversy whatsoever about the case which is not true, it inaccurately summarizes the facts about the shift schedule, and there is emotional writing rather than facts based writing. For example, the user deleted the phrase "who was convicted of murdering" and changed it to "who murdered" because it did not fit with their sensibilities, even though the prior version was factual, did not question the verdict, and actually was more informative (she was convicted by a jury for multiple murders, which is more specific than the more vague phrase "who murdered").

I understand this case has strong emotions for british and involves the highly sensitive subject of a serial killer of small children. However, the newer edits do not argue for conspiracy theories. Instead, they provide factual info from reliable investigative reporting that adds additional factual context to a case that has lots of interest from the public. The reason that the page has recent traffic is because of a major article from the USA written by a serious investigate journalist who interviewed experts and cited the direct evidence and transcripts from the case. And none of the edits made any conspiracy claims. In fact, I don't think some editors here know what a conspiracy is, a concept that doesn't really apply here. 74.111.100.35 (talk) 09:29, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I was not happy with that edit summary either. However, the lead sentence was intensively discussed in an RFC and settled. (RFCs are one of Wikipedia's formal processes for establishing community consensus, and their outcomes remain in effect indefinitely.) That discussion's now in our talk page archive at Talk:Lucy Letby/Archive 3#RFC on Lead sentence. NebY (talk) 10:11, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

ok that's fair and an actual reason for the reversal. I'm sure there will be more edits like this though 74.111.100.35 (talk) 12:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, glad that helped, and yes indeed, along with reinsertions of "serial killer" too - and then there's the retrial in July. NebY (talk) 14:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, in June (as of last month, anyway). NebY (talk) 17:15, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Isn’t the retrial only for a single, un resolved charge? She’s still very much guilty of the crimes for which she has been found guilty, although I believe there is an appeal pending. SteadyJames (talk) 21:44, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

She’s still very much guilty of the crimes for which she has been found guilty - that is, charitably, tautologous. In law she is guilty because the law has found her guilty. However, on the greater question, she is, as a matter of fact, either guilty or not, and she was guilty or not before she was found guilty and will remain guilty or not regardless of the outcome of various appeals. Speculation on that point is not the role of an encylopaedic article. Careful use of language is. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:01, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

It’s not speculation—with this logic she might only ever be considered “accused” even when found guilty. Assuming a miscarriage of justice before the review or retrial process is complete is to question the sanctity of the English legal system—which is definitely outside the capabilities and role of an encyclopaedia article. Just report the facts. Letby remains guilty, she is by definition a convicted murderer and serial killer. By all means, mention the details of the single charge on which she will be retried and why the retrial is happening. The article should even mention that there is a review process in place regarding other aspects of the original trial, but at this point what else is proven? SteadyJames (talk) 06:16, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Just report the facts. Yes. The verifiable ones. Letby remains guilty No, this is loose language. Sally Clark was never guilty. She did not remain guilty until her conviction was quashed. Your following clauses are better: she is by definition a convicted murderer and serial killer. Which is a verifiable fact. We report that. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

You’re splitting hairs. She’s a convicted murderer, in short a murderer. She was found guilty and that judgement stands until it is overturned. Stick to what we know not what we might speculate on. SteadyJames (talk) 08:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Stick to what we know is exactly my point. But your language is tighter in that last comment, so we can leave it there. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

See Lucy Letby#Appeal and retrial. NebY (talk) 22:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

(That was my edit, so asking:) What is the process for reopening the RFC? Much of the recent reporting since January has brought new interest to the case and new, very credible questions about the strength of the evidence. I am not a conspiracy theorist or truther and I don't have a personal opinion on whether or not this woman committed these crimes! But I find it hard to accept that we are okay with the lead stating "her being on duty whenever suspicious incidents took place." -- this is just factually untrue and depends on an entirely subjective and biased definition of "suspicious," as investigated at length in the New Yorker article. One man decided what qualified as "suspicious" here and is unable to provide a concrete explanation. This feels very low quality for Wikipedia (not to mention for a criminal trial, but that's another matter!). Sneakers2929 (talk) 13:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Rather than reopening the RfC, you just need to start a new one. However the question being asked is best workshopped a little. An RfC question must be neutrally phrased, and one option should be retaining the current text, but note that, while an option might add "convicted" (a word I always felt was better), others might reopen the question of the addition of "serial killer" in the first words, before even mentioning she was a nurse. There is no saying where a new consensus will fall, nor will a new RfC really resolve the matter. We would, however, need to be on the look out for the canvassing that affected the last RfC. I doubt that sock puppet has gone away.

Personally, however, I would support the editors currently taking a deep dive into the article itself, and leave the lead alone until they are done. This article has been a monster that I have long intended to work on, but previous discussions on small changes became a massive time sink, and the larger, and IMHO more valuable work was ignored. I am very grateful to Soni and others who are taking a deeper look and cutting out swathes of weakly sourced and primary sourced guff. The article has long had NOTNEWS issues, that are finally being addressed (no thanks to me!). Let's see how that looks when done and only then have another ding-dong over the first sentence! Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:26, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I completely agree, but I would also like to start a new RFC if it's not immediately getting shut down. Ledes are the "most representative" summary of the overall article and most likely, the only parts of the article a large majority of editors will read.

For me, I completely disagree with how much POV the current lede is pushing. I did not touch it much myself because I didn't want to mess with established consensus. But frankly the state of the entire article was much less "Neutral Wikipedia article about X" and more "True crime documentary with a story to tell" (Still is, but lesser). And I really hate that on a well-visited article, especially a BLP. So I'd like to re-establish that NPOV and "Wikipedia fairness" here, which changing the lede is part and parcel of. Soni (talk) 14:03, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm all in favour of sorting out the body of the article first and then summarising it, but inconsistently I've still tried trimming the contested second half of the first paragraph; it was getting into detail which I think we can grapple with later rather than burdening the reader with it at once - or giving ourselves another editing problem when there's more to do. NebY (talk) 14:39, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Adding a little to what Sirfurboy says: our sources at present largely accept the outcome of the trail. Aviv's article is an exception, but blogs etc don't qualify as reliable sources, so how much other "recent reporting since January" is there that would be appropriate per WP:DUE? I'm also uncertain how much of Aviv's report brings new material that hasn't already been taken into account (or at least been available to be taken into account); for example, much about Dewi Evans was raised by the defence during the trial.

As to what next, the retrial on one count begins in JulyJune. I could be wrong, but I think most reporting restrictions will fall away when that's complete, as it'll no longer be sub judice (the privacy restriction might still remain). The restrictions on reporting the arguments for allowing an appeal will probably end, and it may be that the Appeal Court judges are waiting until the end of that trial to release their decision on whether to allow an appeal to proceed. All in all, we may then have a lot more reliable sources that we can use and that affect what's WP:DUE. NebY (talk) 14:11, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm also uncertain how much of Aviv's report brings new material that hasn't already been taken into account (or at least been available to be taken into account); for example, much about Dewi Evans was raised by the defence during the trial. To me, this question is inconsequential. Our article at the time could have been biased regardless of reliable sources existing on both sides. Alternately, Aviv's report brings those arguments from primary source (a defence who has to help their client) vs secondary (a reporter). That itself could be enough for us to consider adding more of those concerns here.

Ultimately though, I think it does not matter much. For me, the rule of thumb I'm aiming for is "summarise all RS fairly, do not give too much weightage to any". I don't care if our sources largely accept the outcome, as much as if they specifically accept "Lucy injected insulin and this was an insulin murder" (and a dozen other similar claims). Where there is reasonable doubt from RS, we should mention it on a case-by-case basis. Soni (talk) 15:13, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

To me, this question is inconsequential is the correct response. :) That was me veering into WP:NOTFORUM. NebY (talk) 16:11, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 May 2024

With the publishing of the (now multiple) news sources calling into question the circumstantial evidence and statistical fallacies inherent to the Letby case, I'm concerned that the wikipedia article is not adequately updated to reflect these changes. There are numerous edits that I have seen that make reference to her crimes as if they were factually committed by her. I believe a line regarding the potential wrongful conviction she may well be facing should be added to the introductory body of the article, instead of buried so far down, because it is absolutely a contentious issue, particularly now that parliamentary members have been asking why it is Geoblocked in the UK. Eastcheep (talk) 16:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Per discussion above, the article is undergoing a major rewrite and WP:WEIGHTs given to viewpoints may change drastically. It's best to wait for the body to be finished before changing the lead. Liu1126 (talk) 16:59, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Suggested edit - One charge dropped

I think the article should probably mention that originally 8 charges were brought to trial, but one was dropped because the prosecution could offer no evidence. A good source here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-61759823#:~:text=Nick%20Johnson%2C%20QC%2C%20said%20the,neonatal%20unit%20at%20the%20hospital.

Apologies if this is already in the article, but it probably should go in that first paragraph in the section '2023 Trial' as it explains the discrepancy between the number of murder charges in the first paragraphs and the number of counts to which she pled not guilty in the second. 2A00:23C6:AE87:3401:9C2F:756E:70EC:DCE7 (talk) 11:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)