Talk:Operation 1111

Title

@Lukt64 I think Operation 1111 is the WP:COMMONNAME used by most sources- do you have any sources you're using that refer to it is the 2023 Battle of Loikaw? EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 03:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Some sources are just calling it the Battle of Loikaw, but this should probably be made into a move discussion. Lukt64 (talk) 03:32, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

If you want to propose that, please do so. I'll look to see if I can find any consensus between sources, but is think Operation 1111 is additionally a WP:NATURAL disambiguation compared to using "(2023-present)". EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 03:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't remember having seen a single battle of Loikaw to refer to this battle, just the previous ones. In fact I've seen the oposite. Articles mixing 1107 and 1111 with one another, talking about fighting in Mobye being part of 1111 etc. While earlier on the irrawaddy as an example distibguished between them better. That said, 1111 is in practise the 'battle of Loikaw 2023-'. Thus imo the naming should be consistent and applied the relevant articles. Meaning in practise Rename this article to battle of Loikaw, then do also change the 1107 to more descriptive title OR keep the current names. That's my two cents. The wp:commonname cited above would be logical, since 1111 is more common in the refs used here. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 17:17, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Newer:

Older:

I noticed that in december-ish articles started to refer to everything in the area as 1111 and the name 1107 isn't encountered any longer that often. Above I picked two sources from the same outlet to keep them comparable. In the november article they talk about 1107 and in dec about 1111 when concerning fighting outside of Loikaw city. My guess it is for The Irrawaddys convience, not because of the operations changed, just so it may be easier to write the news. A third option could thus be to rename the article Operation 1107 to Operation 1111 and then this one to battle of loikaw. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 18:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, in my own understanding of the operations, 1107 is like Operation Taungthaman - pretty small but hyped up enough around its start forWP:SIGCOV. Once 1111 was announced, people slowly stopped talking about 1107 as your references show. I think Irrawaddy likely has an internals style guide, but can't be sure.

I'd suggest instead that we merge Operation 1107 into Operation 1111 by adding it as a section in the background and mentioning that 1111's definition broadened as both went on? EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 19:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Sure, if combined with a partial rewrite, where text is switched around, copy-pasted to sections. It could be doable. Have a Fighting section with sub headers for Loikaw, Demoso, Mobye, Bago etc. and maybe an analytical situation to highlight the significance of the fighting, say highways being cut, regime tropps bogged down etc.

But what would the merged article be called? I mean to some that may seem like a petty question. It either wp commonname would dictate Operation 1107 & 1111, bc those are used, which imo sounds bad and doesn't roll off the tung. In this case I would go with a wp:natural and have a more descriptive name that makes common sense, but may not be too well attested.

Though that said, personally I prefer to keep them separate, for now. Meaning until fighting dies down and if some new terms emerge in the post plus any info that could clarify the op1107 & 1111. Though I'm not too strongly set in any direction, just that the action should make sense and is an improvement to the previous rather than just because. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 17:23, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, agreed with you on it being WP:TOOSOON to make the call. 1107 & 1111 is very clunky. I expect new information/analysis to come out eventually, but at least right now the best situation is the current soft content fork- I would personally just add the additional developments in 1111 - as they are being referred by sources. Basically, Operation 1111 seems to have expanded in scope to cover everything 1107 was covering anyways EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 18:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Added the first January update, added a quote where all, typically 1107 areas are mentioned under 1111. Prepping for an potential merge. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 15:11, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Btw, I've been reading up on the latest. In one source the operation 1111 is called the Battle for Loikaw. The same article describes 1027 as the 'October offensive'.

Besides this there seem to be interchangeable use of Karen and Karenni units when discussion operations near Kayah state. This includes articles like; but also washington post above. I think it is because their working together.

Based on these I think we should maybe keep the articles separate, rename the 1111 to Battle for Loikaw, expand the 1107 to include KNU and their stuff, rename that one November offensive or similar as per the WP precedent in regards to 1027. Or merge them under a November Offensive with KNU included and a subsection on Loikaw. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 09:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

References

End date

Should there be declared an end date? There hasn't been any significant updates since, what? March maybe.Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 19:04, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Usually when an operation, campaign or specific battle goes on for a long period of time, both the media and the editors lose interest, making it seem like it has ended ahead of time. This is worsened by the fact that sometimes there are low-points in the amount of activity, making it less interesting for someone to cover. Usually something big has to happen to have people regain that attention, which doesn't happen often. Considering the fact that some battles in Myanmar have lasted for years, we would really need some concrete evidence that the operation either has ended in practice, or that the groups responsible have declared that this particular operation has finished. Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 20:14, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I Agree, there is probably low-level or stalemated fighting. With low media interest. I'm thinking more technically. Part of Loikaw had already been under Kayah control post the battles of Loikaw. I'm wondering if the combat has always been ongoing, but that the rebel forces just annouce a 'new' battle when they think they can get somthing interesting the media. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 05:56, 12 May 2024 (UTC)