User talk:Jkaharper/2021/February
ITN recognition for Wayne Terwilliger[edit]
On 4 February 2021, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Wayne Terwilliger, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Stephen 02:52, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
A barnstar for you![edit]
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The Original Barnstar |
| Hi, re Tom McGoldrick's date of death - could I check your source please? plus would you have a place of death? BLUEARMYTWO (talk) 10:12, 7 February 2021 (UTC) |
I have reverted your restoration of the birth and death information regarding this person. Please review our policies on reliable sources -- a blog is not a reliable source. I did, in fact, do an extensive search looking for this information, and was unable to find it from a reputable source. If you have one, please feel free to add the information back in, along with a citation from the source, but do not restore the information without a citation from a reliable source. Until we have a citation from a reliable source o say that Ms. Hines is dead, we have to treat her article as a WP:BLP, and the rules for editing BLP article are stricter than for normal article. Best, Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:01, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
- Please see this. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:47, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
- Hi Jkaharper: well, it seems that the mystery has been solved once again by the very helpful people at the National Film Information Service, once again! Details hopefully to come shortly. Unfortunately it seems that there are only primary sources at this time, but I suppose once could make a case for IAR in order to refute that hoax date of 2011. Connormah (talk) 21:18, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- Bravo. This is BRILLIANT news! At last. I think the page will still require some degree of surveillance even once this is added/sourced as there is a determination amongst some who take sites like IMDb as gospel to change it to the hoax 2011 date! Hopefully once we get the change put in place it will act as a catalyst to undo some of the damage done elsewhere online, like the discovery of Pola Illery's true birthdate did [embarrassingly established newspapers even wrote obituaries for her using the fake death date!]. I have no problem with primary sources where they are necessary and I'd be happy to back you up on this. Any idea of when you'll have it by? Whilst I have you here, two more things. Is the National Film Information Service easy to contact and would they be willing to help with a few other cases? Off the top of my head there are maybe half a dozen or so other Hollywood names who have fallen into limbo on here, and nothing has ever surfaced to confirm their fate. Secondly, have you seen the comments I left on the talk page of Marjorie Montgomery? I'd like to know your thoughts. IMDb recently added a death date for her. I went on Ancestry and worked backwards to see if I could find corroborating evidence, and I did (with a great deal of digging) by matching the mother's name. So we now have IMDb + Ancestry. Both are shunned when cited alone, but they do support one another here. I'd like to add the death information and source it with records but I'd happily take a second opinion first? Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 00:38, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Hopefully sometime by next week. I am just waiting to see if I can confirm a full date first, which I will pass along to the contacts that I corresponded with. I had originally contacted them to enquire regarding Dusty Anderson as I noted that the Margaret Herrick Library held her donated fonds and I surmised that they must have some note regarding her death. The 2007 year was found in their internal finding aid to the Core Collection Files, which allowed them to find that 2007 death notice. The Hines case has bugged me ever since I came across it, so I also figured I'd raise it with them, and though she did not have a similar entry in that finding aid, they generously took another look into the existing research and mentioned that once they are able to return to the library (Covid restrictions) they would create an entry for Hines with this new info (which could perhaps later be cited). Agreed that hoaxes of this nature are a problem... I seem to recall the same occurring with Louise Henry (actress) years ago until I contacted a relative to confirm her correct info, which finally seems to have supplanted the hoax date that was circulating prior. I've tried to contact IMDB (I'm sure you must have too) to take down the 2011 date for Hines but it appears my attempts were not successful (though apparently the info I also submitted for [1] was deemed okay, despite the amount of provided evidence being the same). I haven't taken a look at Montgomery yet but I'll look tonight or tomorrow. Are there any others, off the top of your head? (I know of Helen Rowland (actress) as well, but that one looks very difficult). Connormah (talk) 00:52, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I have contacted IMDb quite a few times in the past. They're a total pain. They've refused to take genuine findings supported by research off my hands before, and at the same time I've repeatedly had to contact them to remove hoax death dates (like Don Marion Davis's, before it finally stopped happening owing to his real death at the end of 2020). On a positive note, it is much better on Wikipedia now than say 10, even 5 years ago. There were a lot of blanks on bios of Hollywood names. Collaborative research, time and effort put in by users has meant that my "Watchlist" on here is now dwindling. Here are the Hollywood names that still need tackled, I'll split them according to priority:
- Hopefully sometime by next week. I am just waiting to see if I can confirm a full date first, which I will pass along to the contacts that I corresponded with. I had originally contacted them to enquire regarding Dusty Anderson as I noted that the Margaret Herrick Library held her donated fonds and I surmised that they must have some note regarding her death. The 2007 year was found in their internal finding aid to the Core Collection Files, which allowed them to find that 2007 death notice. The Hines case has bugged me ever since I came across it, so I also figured I'd raise it with them, and though she did not have a similar entry in that finding aid, they generously took another look into the existing research and mentioned that once they are able to return to the library (Covid restrictions) they would create an entry for Hines with this new info (which could perhaps later be cited). Agreed that hoaxes of this nature are a problem... I seem to recall the same occurring with Louise Henry (actress) years ago until I contacted a relative to confirm her correct info, which finally seems to have supplanted the hoax date that was circulating prior. I've tried to contact IMDB (I'm sure you must have too) to take down the 2011 date for Hines but it appears my attempts were not successful (though apparently the info I also submitted for [1] was deemed okay, despite the amount of provided evidence being the same). I haven't taken a look at Montgomery yet but I'll look tonight or tomorrow. Are there any others, off the top of your head? (I know of Helen Rowland (actress) as well, but that one looks very difficult). Connormah (talk) 00:52, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Bravo. This is BRILLIANT news! At last. I think the page will still require some degree of surveillance even once this is added/sourced as there is a determination amongst some who take sites like IMDb as gospel to change it to the hoax 2011 date! Hopefully once we get the change put in place it will act as a catalyst to undo some of the damage done elsewhere online, like the discovery of Pola Illery's true birthdate did [embarrassingly established newspapers even wrote obituaries for her using the fake death date!]. I have no problem with primary sources where they are necessary and I'd be happy to back you up on this. Any idea of when you'll have it by? Whilst I have you here, two more things. Is the National Film Information Service easy to contact and would they be willing to help with a few other cases? Off the top of my head there are maybe half a dozen or so other Hollywood names who have fallen into limbo on here, and nothing has ever surfaced to confirm their fate. Secondly, have you seen the comments I left on the talk page of Marjorie Montgomery? I'd like to know your thoughts. IMDb recently added a death date for her. I went on Ancestry and worked backwards to see if I could find corroborating evidence, and I did (with a great deal of digging) by matching the mother's name. So we now have IMDb + Ancestry. Both are shunned when cited alone, but they do support one another here. I'd like to add the death information and source it with records but I'd happily take a second opinion first? Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 00:38, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Jkaharper: well, it seems that the mystery has been solved once again by the very helpful people at the National Film Information Service, once again! Details hopefully to come shortly. Unfortunately it seems that there are only primary sources at this time, but I suppose once could make a case for IAR in order to refute that hoax date of 2011. Connormah (talk) 21:18, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Firstly, the names who are missing death dates outright but who are most likely deceased...
- Margie Hines
- Marjorie Montgomery (died 1991, see my talk page comments for the evidence)
- Alfredo Varelli, now he's Italian but did appear in Hollywood films e.g. Quo Vadis. Trouble is he likely died in Italy, so a headache for us as their records aren't easily accessible like the British, American and French ones are.
- Helen Rowland (actress), you mentioned her above. That bland newspaper obit from 1978 (which has been discussed on her talk page before) is probably her judging from the original research but it doesn't link up neatly and can't be added.
- John Bartha, Hungarian but appeared in Hollywood films, mainly Spaghetti westerns. Died in 1991 in the States, the records are on Ancestry but again it needs to be neatly linked up first to prove it's him (i.e. his spouse/residence would need to be cited from a newspaper article), otherwise it can't be used and we need to wait on a more appropriate source.
- Tom Felleghy, Hungarian-born Italian actor, again appeared in Spaghetti westerns.
- Cate Bauer, American or British? or American-British or British-American? Who knows. There's been a history of controversy with this one, with edits being changed to her birth place to say either New York or London. Not convinced that her DOB is correct either, but she is most likely deceased. Very strange case given that she had a leading role in a Disney box office smash.
- Antony Carbone, DOBs vary for him online. Ancestry suggests the 1925 one is correct though. He was falsely reported to have died some years ago. In 2020, someone edited his page to say he had died. I'm inclined to believe it but it's occurred off radar so what do we do? Either wait 10+ years for the official record to appear on Ancestry or hope that an obituary comes in the meantime.
Secondly I'd throw Joan Barry (American actress) in a category by itself. The death date has been up for a while now. For ages me and a bunch of other users kept reverting it. It's only supported by Ancestry, and the page/notes are a total mess. I haven't scrubbed the death date off lately because I have some sympathy for the user who has done the original research given that they went out of their way to do it because the original FindAGrave source was pulled. The Wikipedia policy of barring FindAGrave yet allowing Legacy.com doesn't make a great deal of sense to me...
Lastly there are the names I'd consider to be least concern. They all have sourced death dates now. Half of them were added by me, but the sources are usually just Ancestry records or "lesser" sources and require something more concrete long-term to avoid pedantic users coming along and scrubbing the information off. Toni Seven, Jeanne Manet, Anita Ellis (singer), Virginia Marshall, Vonda Phelps, Doris Merrick and Anne Triola are the ones I can think of right now.
There may be one or two others in that last tier, but in terms of biographies with missing death info, I think the above is more less it now. It's by no means an exhaustive list and I'm convinced the missing information will be found eventually. Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 15:28, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks, I'll keep some of these in mind over the next little bit and see if I can find anything further (and add them to my watchlist). That Bauer one looks particularly interesting, especially given her role such a prominent film (I also see there have been some "Happy 97th birthday" postings online with what I'm assuming is some sort of stock image). Also, I took a look at the Montgomery research and it looks good to me, though I wonder if may be also be able to find a citation for her mother's name being Cleveland? Connormah (talk) 17:23, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Fairly certain I've tracked down Cate Bauer. It seems that she was a native of the San Francisco area, and her likely correct DOB is 1929. Here are some newspaper clippings of her under her maiden name: [2] [3] and her parents' obituaries: [4] [5] (it appears he father was Irish and mother English). You can find her marriage in 1953 to Karel Miroslav Bauer on Ancestry and a 1950 yearbook listing that gives her name as Cate Cotter (which should tie her to the Cate Bauer). I have to head out now but perhaps you may be able to track down the correct info using these leads. Connormah (talk) 17:51, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- And per this it looks like she was born in NYC in September 1929. Per public records, she is likely still alive, in either Seattle or California. Connormah (talk) 17:56, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- One additional note - per public records, Antony Carbone's last residence of record is Long Beach, California, which may be helpful for searching in the future. Connormah (talk) 17:00, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Connormah, thanks for all this. Good finds and I agree with you – that's definitely Bauer and the most logical explanation is the 1922 birth date if wrong + she's either still alive OR has died off radar in the last few years (and as such, it won't appear in the records yet). I will update her page tomorrow with the correct birth/family details and source it best I can but I'll keep her in the Possibly Living category for now. As for Carbone, I've contacted the Twilight Zone Museum (yes, apparently that's a thing). They list him as a living actor on their site. The webmaster says he has a guy who researches/keeps in contact with Twilight Zone actors, so he's going to look into it. I reckon he is dead (petty vandalism to Wiki pages of more obscure actors is pretty rare), but proving it may take some time. I'll also try and make progress with the Marjorie Montgomery page this coming week. If you find any more records or sources for any of the above names, please feel free to copy and paste them here and I'll put them to use where possible. Thanks again for your help! --Jkaharper (talk) 17:15, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- No problem! Re: Bauer, per public records (not sure I can link the page here as it may be on the spam blacklist) I am pretty sure she last resided in Seattle and is probably still alive. Looks like the 1 Sep 1929 DOB was in the article previously and it got later changed to 1922, but per that passenger list and the birth index (and multiple consistent other records) the correct date is definitely 1 Sep 1929 in New York City. It appears her older sister was born in England in 1928 and the two may have grown up splitting time in the US/England so perhaps that may be where the confusion comes from. Connormah (talk) 17:28, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- Hi, I'm building up the Bauer page at the moment. Could you please send me the obituary of her father? I can't seem to locate it via searching on Newspapers.com. Above you've sent me the link to her mother's obituary twice by accident. Thanks! --Jkaharper (talk) 14:56, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- That's Bauer done. Have a look and tell me what you think. I tried to squeeze the info we have on her as much as possible. Sadly I don't think we'll get anything more about her life until the time when/if an obituary surfaces. Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 15:46, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hi, I'm building up the Bauer page at the moment. Could you please send me the obituary of her father? I can't seem to locate it via searching on Newspapers.com. Above you've sent me the link to her mother's obituary twice by accident. Thanks! --Jkaharper (talk) 14:56, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- No problem! Re: Bauer, per public records (not sure I can link the page here as it may be on the spam blacklist) I am pretty sure she last resided in Seattle and is probably still alive. Looks like the 1 Sep 1929 DOB was in the article previously and it got later changed to 1922, but per that passenger list and the birth index (and multiple consistent other records) the correct date is definitely 1 Sep 1929 in New York City. It appears her older sister was born in England in 1928 and the two may have grown up splitting time in the US/England so perhaps that may be where the confusion comes from. Connormah (talk) 17:28, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Connormah, thanks for all this. Good finds and I agree with you – that's definitely Bauer and the most logical explanation is the 1922 birth date if wrong + she's either still alive OR has died off radar in the last few years (and as such, it won't appear in the records yet). I will update her page tomorrow with the correct birth/family details and source it best I can but I'll keep her in the Possibly Living category for now. As for Carbone, I've contacted the Twilight Zone Museum (yes, apparently that's a thing). They list him as a living actor on their site. The webmaster says he has a guy who researches/keeps in contact with Twilight Zone actors, so he's going to look into it. I reckon he is dead (petty vandalism to Wiki pages of more obscure actors is pretty rare), but proving it may take some time. I'll also try and make progress with the Marjorie Montgomery page this coming week. If you find any more records or sources for any of the above names, please feel free to copy and paste them here and I'll put them to use where possible. Thanks again for your help! --Jkaharper (talk) 17:15, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
Ok, so here are the relevant links for Margie Hines. I suppose if I am able to confirm a full date we will not be able to use it until the info has been forwarded along to the Margaret Herrick Library and put into their system, so hopefully these should suffice in the meantime. The librarian was able to discover that she married Raymond Brenneis in 1951 [7]; divorced him in 1954 [8]; married Jesse W Heidtmann in 1956 [9]; and died under the Heidtmann name in December 1985, last living in Seaford, NY [10]. This additional public records listing for Marjorie L Heidtmann [11] also gives an alternate name of Marjorie L Hines, so in addition to the matching DOB, it is undoubtedly the correct person. Connormah (talk) 01:06, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Okay, done the next thing on my "to do" list which was the Marjorie Montgomery page. It all seems to link up quite nicely. Have a look and tell me what you think though. As for Margie Hines, do you think we should just wait on this data being inputed by the librarian first? Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 19:38, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Great Job[edit]
Hi Jkaharper great job in finding so many actress' who disappeared mainly from the public eye. Keep up the great work. --ThatBaileyLad (talk) 16:15, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you very much! Full credit to Connormah for the recent Margie Hines and Dusty Anderson finds though! --Jkaharper (talk) 16:30, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
Nomination of Milford Graves for Recent Deaths - In the News section - *please support*[edit]
Hi Jkaharper, I nominated Milford Graves (RIP) for the recent deaths section. Please support this nomination if you feel supportive of it. Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates#RD:_Milford_Graves
Thank you Wil540 art (talk) 16:00, 14 February 2021 (UTC)