Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Oerip Soemohardjo

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Oerip Soemohardjo[edit]

Nominator(s):  — Crisco 1492 (talk)


I am nominating this article for A-Class review because I believe it is a good look at a fairly important, yet surprisingly undercovered, figure in Indonesian military history. After a long and successful career working for the Dutch, Oerip led the Indonesian Armed Forces as interim-commander for not even a month, before being replaced by Sudirman, who hadn't been born yet when Oerip graduated from the academy. Oerip continued on as chief of staff until he grew fed up with what he perceived as the government's lack of trust in the military leadership. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:30, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Images

  • Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
  • Done.
  • Given that Indonesia does not have freedom of panorama, pictures showing 3D works (including buildings) need to account for copyright of both photo and work
  • I'm a little confused on this one, because the copyright at the time of the construction of Oerip's house would have been Dutch (Dutch East Indies, after all) and thus {{FoP-Nederland}} would apply; however, it's situated in Indonesia, which may affect the tag (not the status, though). For the museum/former military base, I think I should tag as PD-ID and note that I have been unable to find out who the architect was. Worst-case scenario, I follow the Hirtle chart and just upload it to Wikipedia (as both buildings were built well before 1990, images of them would be PD in the US). What do you think is the best course of action? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:22, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Confused over this. There doesn't seem to be a PD-Indonesia-unknown template or anything of the like for a work by an unknown author, and {{PD-IDOld-Art29}} can't be used without a lifespan. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:49, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even if you upload it to Wikipedia, you'll need to account for the building copyright somehow. According to this, works by unknown authors are copyrighted by the state, which means you could use the government template. I don't know how the colony vs country issue affects copyright, though - the copyright act says state claims copyright on historical/cultural works, do you think these would count? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:36, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Oerip_Soemohardjo_5_November_1947_KR.JPG: what is IPPHOS? Also, the US tag says it was PD before URAA, but the Indonesian tag suggests otherwise - do you know why? That question also applies to File:Sudirman.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:22, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • As outlined at Wikipedia:Non-U.S. copyrights, at the time of the URAA Indonesia's copyright law was 25 years post publication for photographs; as such, these images were PD at the time. The law was changed in 2002, after the URAA, and copyright on images extended to 50 years post publication. Should I edit the template directly? IPPHOS is the Indonesia Press Photo Service, which really should have an article but doesn't. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:22, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, I think mentioning that either on the template itself or the documentation would be helpful. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:36, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've added information to the PD-URAA templates and have requested either a special template or addendum to PD-IDOld-Art29 here. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:38, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems creating a special purpose template would be met with resistance. I think the addendum I've affixed at the end of the PD-1996 tag clarifies it enough. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:08, 11 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • K, I think I've given proper explanation. Please feel free to give further feedback. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:49, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. - Dank (push to talk)

  • Most of the lead is nicely done, but I do have a few comments.
  • "This is an Indonesian name; it does not have a family name. The name Soemohardjo is a patronymic, and the person should be referred by the given name, Oerip. ... General Oerip Soemohardjo ([uˈrɪp sumoˈhardʒo]; Perfected Spelling: Urip Sumoharjo, also known by the intermediate spelling Urip Sumohardjo, born Mohammad Sidik; 22 February 1893 – 17 November 1948) ...": We haven't gotten past the subject of the first sentence yet, and already some readers will have given up. How about this? "General Oerip Soemohardjo or Urip Sumoharjo (born 22 February 1893 – 17 November 1948) ...". Then the second paragraph can start "Born Mohammad Sidik on ...", or if that name didn't get significant use, you can put that off to the first section.
  • I think it should be noted why Oerip is sometimes written Urip, although I agree the Soewandi Spelling (no article yet) isn't really needed. An annoying thing about Indonesian is that there are three main spelling systems, and older subjects can be known under all three
  • "known as the first Chief of Staff": Some will read this to mean that he wasn't the first Chief of Staff, he was just assumed to be that. "the first Chief of Staff"
  • Done.
  • "In his second year, his mother died and Oerip left ...": His mother died during his second year, and Oerip left
  • Done
  • Done
  • "Oerip remained as chief of staff. Together the two oversaw ...": Oerip remained as chief of staff, and together the two oversaw
  • Done
  • "disgusted by the political leadership's lack of trust in the army and ongoing political manoeuvrings ...": insert "by" before "ongoing"
  • Done
  • "death ... He has received ...": I see your point, but I'd go with "He received". The award-giving isn't really an ongoing process, is it? - Dank (push to talk) 18:42, 11 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done. He could, theoretically, get more awards, but I don't see much of a chance of that.
  • Thanks for taking a look! — Crisco 1492 (talk)
  • So far so good on prose per standard disclaimer, down to where I stopped, at Oerip_Soemohardjo#KNIL. These are my edits. (The toolserver may need a few days before my recent edits show up.) - Dank (push to talk) 23:48, 11 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Continuing.
  • "convinced his commander to strike an ordinance forbidding non-Dutch officers from joining the football team, as well as the local railroads to allow desegregated cars; by 1917 he had received equal status with Dutch officers.": How can a commander of a military unit strike strike a civil ordinance, or tell the local railroads what to do? What does "equal status" mean?
  • I've stricken the bit about the railroad as, double-checking the sources, it appears to have been more of a trolley. A note on the second point: I've added "legal" to make this clearer, but perhaps a footnote would be in order. The Dutch East Indies had three classifications for its residents: natives, foreign orientals, and Europeans (including the Japanese, after a treaty). Natives could have their legal status equalised with Europeans after working closely with the government (a fairly important piece of character development in Salah Asuhan is based on this); this was mostly de jure, as natives would still face discrimination.
  • "First Lieutenant": lowercase
  • Done
  • "he also worked to prevent conflicts between different Dayak tribes, as well as convince the tribes to abandon headhunting.": he also worked to prevent conflicts and headhunting among Dayak tribes
  • Done
  • "After two years, in which time his father pressured him to marry quickly,": I don't think this adds a lot.
  • Nixed that, added "Initially known to avoid women and under pressure to marry quickly to the next sentence.
  • "While training local recruits in stead of the Dutch commander – who had yet to arrive – Oerip was promoted to captain.": While training local recruits in place of the Dutch commander who had yet to arrive, Oerip was promoted to captain. - Dank (push to talk) 23:27, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "promoted to Major": lowercase
  • "he was stationed in Purworejo,": period/full stop
  • "In mid 1938, after a disagreement with the local regent": comma after. - Dank (push to talk) 03:42, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done all, thanks for looking at this. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:02, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "To protect their land, they surrounded both their property and their home with a high bamboo fence; however, Oerip occasionally received former KNIL leaders such as Abdul Haris Nasution and Sunarmo, who brought news of happenings outside the village.": The "however" doesn't work because these two elements aren't in opposition (unless he rarely received visitors other than the ones listed, in which case, say that).
  • Done.
  • "The couple continued work, under heavy Japanese surveillance and with interference from a pro-Japanese civil employee": I don't understand what "interference" means here.
  • From the source: he convinced most of their employees to quit and took an interest in Nasution and Sunarmo coming to the villa (kept his eye on them, essentially). I didn't think it was worth an in-line mention. Worth a footnote?
  • "a mainly police organisation": mainly a police organisation
  • Done.
  • "The political leadership, consisting of President Sukarno and Vice-President Mohammad Hatta, agreed to a compromise, where the BKR was formally a police-style organisation, but most of its members had been in the Defenders of the Homeland (Pembela Tanah Air, or PETA) and the Heihō – both military units.": What's the compromise?
  • It had military members (appease one group) but a police mission statement (the other group). How's this?
  • "Oerip was declared its Chief of Staff and interim leader; Oerip left immediately for Jakarta.": Oerip was declared its Chief of Staff and interim leader, and left immediately for Jakarta. - Dank (push to talk) 03:09, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This is an Indonesian name; it does not have a family name. The name Soemohardjo is a patronymic, and the person should be referred by the given name, Oerip.": Would it be possible to move this to a note, and replace this at the top with something shorter, just enough to keep editors from making the mistake of calling him "Soemohardjo"? Something like: "This man is referred to by his Indonesian given name, Oerip.[a]"
  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. (The toolserver may not show the most recent edits.) - Dank (push to talk) 22:52, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments This article is in very good shape, and I have only some limited comments:

  • "to do military training" - 'to undertake military training' would probably work better
  • Agree
  • "Upon the recommendation of a passing doctor" - who did the doctor recommend this to? (eg, was it Oerip or the Army?)
  • Changed to "went". Source says the doctor went with him as far as Terakan, so it may have been a recommendation made to Oerip.
  • What does 'Maréchaussée te Voet' translate to in English?
  • Added
  • Do we know why Oerip traveled to Europe in the 1920s and 30s? (was this for sightseeing, or professional education?)
  • Sightseeing (she goes on about it for several pages...)
  • Did the early Indonesian Army really include "paratrooper divisions"? 'paratrooper units' seems more appropriate. Nick-D (talk) 10:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed both; the paratrooper thing was a brain fart on my part. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:05, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support My comments have now been addressed - I learned a lot about this man, as well as the Colonial Dutch and revolutionary Indonesian Armies from it. Nick-D (talk) 11:44, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments: looks quite good. I only have a few minor points:

  • Removed.
  • "While stationed there Oerip was promoted to first lieutenant but still faced discrimination as a native..." (not sure about the word "still" here. This implies that it has been mentioned before. I might have missed it, but I didn't see that in the text). If you were to add something to the sentence where you mention that he was the only native, then the "still" later on would work;
  • Nixed "still". There were other natives, but not many were officers.
  • "After the Japanese occupied the Indies in early 1942, Oerip was put in a mixed prisoner of war camp in Cimahi" --> was he involved in any fighting against the Japanese before being sent to the camp?
  • Not in sources. Based on what I've read, resistance in Java was pretty poor.
  • this could possibly be a little tighter: "Division commanders from Sumatra, who had voted unanimously for Sudirman, swayed the vote in Sudirman's favour..." --> "Division commanders from Sumatra, who had voted unanimously, swayed the vote in Sudirman's favour..."
  • Fair enough
  • inconsistent capitalisation: "...in charge of the entire Army" v. "uniting the army";
  • Fixed several occasions.
  • "Oerip received numerous awards from the national government posthumously, including the Bintang Sakti (1959), Bintang Mahaputra (1960),[2] Bintang Republik Indonesia Adipurna (1967),[81] and Bintang Kartika Eka Pakci Utama (1968)". Are these very important awards? If possible, I suggest adding a link to an appropriate article to provide the reader with some context. If there is none available, I wonder if a Note could be added briefly explaining whether these awards are high awards or not;
  • in Note e: "The regent was refused entry to an gala celebrating the..." (I don't think "an" works here. Probably best to change it to "a gala". My understanding is that an is used when it comes before a vowel sound). Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 23:09, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oops.
  • No worries, happy to help in any small way. As always your work is of good quality and interesting to read. Thanks for your contribution to the project. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:40, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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